Interview with Sundarananda Das (aka Scott) | By Hutch

HUTCH: So as a preface. Punk (or skinhead or hardcore, etc.) means to me living outside (as much as possible) of society. And since society’s traditions and customs mean to accept tradition and routine without question being punk should be NOT participating in ritualistic behavior for the sake of the action. Why do we pay that tax? Why can’t we commit suicide? Why don’t we steal? Why do we celebrate the 4^th of July or Columbus Day?

I also have a personal history with religion...with a mighty chip on my shoulder. But religion to me seems as much as an innate enemy of punk with their demand to accept with no question. I learned about Hinduism in high school. I have some friends I have asked questions to. But I will ask from the square one perspective.

SUNDARANANDA: See, for me…especially when hearing “keep religion out of hardcore” or “keep religion out of punk rock” I’ve always felt that to do so would mean it’s no longer punk rock or hardcore. ANYTHING is an ok subject. You can’t put restrictions on punk rock lyrics or set limitations on it. I mean…there are bands who are all about their politics (whether it be communism or socialism or racism, etc.) or bands who sing about the aspects of their local scenes or their straight edge lifestyle or people like GG Allin who sang about feces or Johnny Thunders singing about heroin. Punk rock is the forum where all of us can say/sing about whatever we’ve got on the brain. I may disagree with or even hate those political beliefs or lifestyles…but who am I or anyone else to say that punk rock lyrics should only be about this or that? That doesn’t fly in top 40 music. That’s why this music is ours. 

When I started going to shows as a youngin’ I was immediately struck by the fact that the bands were singing about shit that had to do with their lives…not some songs about wizards or fictional subjects. These were people singing from the heart about their real lives and their ways of dealing with their personal experiences. Many of us got our hardcore from the Bad Brains and the Cro Mags early on. Imagine going back in time and seeing the reaction had someone told them to leave their religions out of it? Ha! And I think my own personal religious affiliation is certainly outside of society’s norms! I think there’s a big difference between religion and “religions”. I mean, anyone who unquestionably accepts something without looking into it themselves isn’t all that bright, in my book. But…all that aside…

HUTCH: How did you come across Krishna?

SUNDARANANDA: One day I was on the subway and some deaf lady was selling books for a dollar. One looked wild to me so I bought it as a joke and threw it on my bookshelf. About a year later I was reading a book about George Harrison and saw a picture of him with this old Indian man. I recognized the man as the author on the back of that crazy looking book…so I read it initially to find out what George was on about in a lot of his songs. (Big George Harrison fan.) This was in the pre-internet days, so when I was done I wrote to the address in the back of the book for a catalogue and more books. 

HUTCH: Was the journey a gradual one? Or were did it instantly make sense?

SUNDARANANDA: Some things made sense right away. The things I’d read were written in such a matter of fact and practical way that none of it came across as “foreign”. In fact, a lot of what I was reading didn’t even seem particularly “religious”, just practical. But I didn’t just jump in and join up. I was skeptical to say the least. I had a million questions and doubts a day, so I arranged to meet with one of the popular authors once a week in order to badger him with my questions. 

HUTCH: How did it sit with your punk friends?

SUNDARANANDA: Well, this was in the 80’s, everyone was checking out “weird” shit…so there really wasn’t a lot of resistance from my friends…most of them brushed it off as some wacky thing I was interested in and some of the others thought it was cool that I’d taken to something that seemed so “out there”. Back then it was still ok to read books…and ideas like vegetarianism, animal rights, straight edge, etc. were being discussed regularly. 

HUTCH: Your parents/family? (We often have a different relationship with parents/aunts/uncles than with siblings/cousins.) Did family your age have a more understanding approach (able to look at the prior generations’ standards more skeptically) 

SUNDARANANDA: I didn’t have much of a relationship with cousins or other extended family. My mother had no real negative opinion. She read one or two of the books and thought it was a good thing. My father, on the other hand, lost his mind about it. All he knew were horror stories/rumors he’d heard. He wanted his son to be a professional…get a real job/real life…not be some cult monk being made fun of in Airplane movies. 

HUTCH: Did you already have a western religion indoctrinated in you?

SUNDARANANDA: Not really, no. I mean…I’d gone to Catholic school my whole life, but no one in my family was particularly religious. At the time it was merely a matter of educational quality. We’d go to church sometimes, but that was the extent of it. Midnight mass on Christmas Eve was important, but that was because my dad liked the music…not really much to do with the belief system itself. As a side note, it’s always been kind of funny to me when people talk about “Eastern” religions vs. “Western” religions…because, well, where do Christianity and Judaism come from? Unless you adhere to a Native American or Celtic belief system or you’re a Scientologist or Mormon, your religion is likely to come from the “east” and not the “west”, you know?

HUTCH: Did you ever doubt it after being into it?

SUNDARANANDA:You know, I never have. I mean…I DID come to doubt or, more specifically, question some of the sources of the information I was getting...but that was remedied by an obsession with history and archeology, by going a more direct route in obtaining info and by meeting my Guru (Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayan Goswami Maharaja).

HUTCH: So my experience with Krishna is a few hardcore kids, hardcore lyrics (of many sorts), some non-punk friends who do yoga, and John Joseph biography. 

Watching a 108 show or listening to Bulldoze/Terrorzone or Next Step Up – that’s some angry stuff. Is anger a part of Krishna?

SUNDARANANDA: Anger is a strange thing, man. I mean…it’s something that should be used in the proper way…just like anything else. Personally I think it’s GOOD to be angry about child abusers or people who beat women, say. I think being angry about injustice is a good thing. But ultimately, anger is something that needs to be defeated on an individual basis…like, say, greed. A lot of people over the years ask about “giving up” this or that for my religion. But it’s not about false austerity or putting on a show of poverty for the sake of piety. An emotion like anger is similar. I mean, if you’ve got a hammer you can use it to bash someone’s head in, or use it to build a crib for a baby. Fire can burn you…but you can use it to cook food or warm your family. It’s all about using things in a proper way. Having an attitude of service never hurt anyone, you know? 

HUTCH: Can you explain the polytheistic elements? SO Krishna is the god – but there are other gods, like Shiva?

SUNDARANANDA: “Krishna” means “the all-attractive”. That means that for God to be God, God has to have all of the qualities of everything we see around us. God should be the “most” of anything, you know? Quantitative vs. qualitative. If something can be beautiful, God should be the most beautiful. If something can be strong, God should be the strongest. Like that. God has no name, really…but because of God’s qualities we apply certain names. If a woman is very beautiful, we call her 'beautiful.' If a man is very intelligent, we call him 'wise.' So a name is given according to the quality or description of that quality. (Although, Krishna IS also a name and was a historical King). I’m sure you’ve noticed that we (mad Hare Krishna’s) call Krishna all sorts of things: Govinda, Gopala, Keshava, etc. Each of these names are descriptive terms…each of these names describe specific qualities. For example, “Govinda” is a friend/protector of the cows (“Go” means cow in Sanskrit). Keshava means the long black hair…as Krishna is often seen in paintings, etc. It’s like calling someone “Skinhead Mike” or “Punk Rock Mike” or “Mikey Hardcore”. It’s like calling someone a Boot Boy or a “Trojan Skin” or something…descriptive terms, you know? But yeah, it’s a monotheistic tradition. That’s difficult for people to see sometimes because Krishna is usually depicted alongside his “better half”, called Radha. That’s a sort of “yin yang” idea. The male and female aspects are both represented. Shiva is part of a “trilogy” for Hindus…but he actually worships and chants/prays to Krishna. 

My Guru once pointed out that Shiva has prayer beads in every depiction. If he’s God, who is he praying to? All of these other “gods” you see are sort of equivalent to a Christian perception of saints or angels or Archangels, etc. Like…God’s helpers and such, you know? It’s like…the big boss has a secretary. It’s cool to be polite and respectful to the secretary when you’re trying to make an appointment to see the boss…but some “Hindus” worship the “secretaries” and, in my particular belief system, misplace their worship by aiming too low. 

HUTCH: Basic tenets?

SUNDARANANDA: The basics? At the core we believe that each living thing has a soul within…and that each of us is eternal. We believe in taking care of that soul just as we take care of our bodies. (Why would you get your car washed and painted regularly but never take care of the engine, you know?) So, the chanting and our way of eating, etc. are for the soul. We believe that there’s one God (who is a personal being who we can have a knowledge of and relationship with), but with all sorts of administrators and “employees” who help out. In the same way that a cup of water scooped from the ocean will have the same qualities as the water in the ocean…we believe that we’re all part and parcel of God…as is everything else around us. We may be quantitatively different (like the cup of water), but not qualitatively different.

HUTCH: Afterlife?

SUNDARANANDA: The basic idea is that our actions dictate where we wind up next. We believe in reincarnation, but the ultimate goal is to get out of the cycle of birth and death and go back to where we came from instead of coming back to being born and getting old and diseased and dying over and over again. Now, where we come from is a matter of debate…but we don’t believe in a formless void or that we merge back into some cosmic nothingness. We believe that each soul within each body retains their individuality to a large extent and goes back to the state we were in before we took on bodies.

HUTCH: What are the factions of Krishna – any parallels to like Protestant vs Episcopalian vs Catholic vs Baptist?

SUNDARANANDA: Hmm…factions. Ok, this is a little complicated so I’ll keep it as simple as possible. The actual religion is called “Vaishnavism”. Vaishnavism is a very specific, very old Indian religion…but is also broken up into a few “groups” or philosophical schools. The one you’re familiar with (or know as “Hare Krishna”) is specifically called Gaudiya Vaishnavism and was established, in its current form, by a saint named Caitanya Mahaprabhu and his associates. He lived around the same time as Christopher Columbus and established many of the familiar practices you see in the religion today. There was a major “church”, if you will, established later by his followers in India which was called the “Gaudiya Matha”. One of the scholars and major teachers (Guru) from the Gaudiya Matha came to America in the 1960’s and started his own organization called the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. Not a different “faction”…just a new, different organization as there hadn’t been one in the West. Personally, I was initiated into the Gaudiya Matha…not ISKCON, because my Guru had remained within the Gaudiya Matha. 

HUTCH: In the JJ bio, he talks about the ISKCON vs Prabhupada followers?

SUNDARANANDA: That Guru I told you about who brought Vaishnavism to the West? His name (for short) was Srila Prabhupada. He was special and very rare. He was what we’d call “the real deal”. After his death, ISKCON had a bit of a split. There were some who didn’t like the new leadership and left. There were some who stayed and accepted the new ISKCON leadership. Many who left wanted only Prabhupada’s words and books and teachings to be their guides…they didn’t want to hear from or be led by people who they’d joined with years before or who they felt were “just like them”. Not being a member of either faction, I don’t really express much of an opinion. I don’t have a dog in that fight. I have friends in both camps...and know some really sincere devotees in both camps. Some, like John Joseph, had personal dealings within one group or another that have caused them to take a strict stance for or against, you know?

HUTCH: How does diet get impacted by following Hare Krishna?

SUNDARANANDA: The idea of a vegetarian diet isn’t to do with animals, really. We offer our food to God before eating. In the Bhagavad Gita (our “Bible” for lack of a better term) it specifically talks about what food Krishna likes to eat and will accept. So we eat only what we can offer. It just so happens to be vegetarian foods. He doesn’t eat shrimp, so we don’t offer it. He doesn’t eat pork or chicken, so we make and eat what he digs. Like…if I invited you to come over for dinner and I knew you hated broccoli, it’d be pretty fucked up and rude of me to knowingly make some broccoli casserole or something, you know? Does God need my food? No…but it’s like a kid getting his dad a tie for Father’s Day. The kid is actually using money from the father’s account to get the tie…and he’s giving him something he doesn’t need and can get for himself…BUT…the kid genuinely wants to do something nice for the father, so the gesture is appreciated and accepted. 

HUTCH: Why are cows sacred? Do you abstain from all meat even though only the cow is sacred?

SUNDARANANDA: Krishna was a cowherd boy. He had a particular affinity for them. BUT…the cow also gives milk and life so it’s symbolically associated with motherhood. Krishna was a protector of the cows…so we try and follow his lead. 

HUTCH: Crustaceans? Seafood? Dairy?

SUNDARANANDA: Vaishnavas are traditionally lacto-vegetarians…no meat, fish or eggs…but they use milk. Personally I’m a vegan so I don’t. I can’t really get behind the use of milk or offering of milk in American temples because store bought milk is the product of the direct opposite of cow protection. To me that’s just supporting an industry that treats the cow horribly. I’m kind of a jerk about that to my fellow Vaishnavas. I feel that if you’re going to buy milk in the supermarket you might as well eat its meat. Same difference.  I don’t go around telling people what they should or shouldn’t eat…it’s not my place. BUT…I do lay into my fellow Vaishnavas about it. I feel like that’s an “internal affairs” issue, so I speak my mind. I don’t want to hear anyone talk to me about cow protection or how sacred they think the cow is while they’re supporting the insane abuse perpetrated by the dairy industry, you know? 

HUTCH: Can you explain the beads? How frequently per day do you have to chant?

SUNDARANANDA: The neck beads are made from a plant called Tulasi and are called Kunti mala. (“Mala” meaning beads.) They’re like a Christian’s crucifix or a Jew’s yarmulke. They are our “dog tags”. The chanting beads are called “Japa Mala”. No different than (and actually the predecessor to) rosary beads. If you’re initiated you’ve promised to take on certain practices like chanting 16 rounds a day. BUT…there’s no mandatory injunction that one be initiated. Some of us just like or need a little more structure and guidance than others.

HUTCH: Do you meditate? Do you reach other realms? Is it “out of body”?

SUNDARANANDA: Sure, I meditate. The chanting on the beads is mantra meditation. It’s hard to do “silent” meditation in this day and age. Where is a quiet spot? Where is there a place without distraction or cars going by or dogs barking? The use of the mantra is not only to bring to mind the qualities of the names you’re chanting, but also to try and create a calm in the brain. Remember what I’d said about using anger in the proper way? Well…the senses can be the enemy to someone trying to meditate. SO instead of falsely trying to renounce the senses, the idea is to use them in the right way or a way that’s helpful. The beads satisfy the sense of touch, the mantra is for the sense of hearing…incense can be used for smell, the food we’ve offered is for the sense of taste, the deities are for the sense of sight, etc. Now…I haven’t personally reached any other realms…and I don’t know about out of body experiences…BUT, to be honest, I don’t care about those things. The chanting/mantra meditation does me a world of good…helps my mood and clears my brain of clutter. Now whether it’s a religious experience or just psychological doesn’t really matter to me because it works for me, you know? 

HUTCH: What is Vedic? And are Hindu and Hare Krishna interchangeable?

SUNDARANANDA: “Vedic” means something derived from the Vedas. The Vedas are some of the oldest texts found on the planet and are the source of a lot of our religious beliefs and practices. The word “Hindu” is a misnomer. It was an umbrella term that invaders to India used to describe people living on the other side of the Sindhu river. “Sindhus” became “Hindus” in the dialect of the people there. It’d be like saying “Americans”. That doesn’t describe a religion, but is a geographic term. There are a ton of different religions and religious beliefs that are “Hindu” because of where they come from. The term “Hare Krishna” came into use when people in the West saw/heard devotees singing and chanting the Hare Krishna mantra, but it’s properly called Vaishnavism. The equivalent would be calling Catholics “Hail Maryers”.  It’s by no means offensive…just not the name of the religion.

HUTCH: Why do you choose a ‘Krishna’ name? How do you come up with it? Are there pre-picked ones you choose from? 

SUNDARANANDA: The name (like my long one) is given to you by your initiating Guru. It’s usually a name of one of Krishna’s associates. Your parents named you before they knew you…your Guru gives you a name based on your qualities. If you notice, each name is followed by “Das”. This means servant. So, for example, my name….Sundarananda Das. “Sundar” means beautiful. “Ananda” means bliss. So my name would mean servant of the beautiful and blissful. 

HUTCH: So, listening to a No Resistance Record, there are confrontational, abrasive lyrics. 

SUNDARANANDA: Keep in mind that not everyone in the band is of the same religious belief as me…BUT…I don’t think we have any lyrics that we aren’t all behind. On my end, my “Bible” (Bhagavad Gita) takes place on a battlefield where there is a serious confrontation. That’s life. There’s no sugarcoating it. We can pretend it’s all peace and love and happiness…but we all know it’s not. There are things that are to be confronted and things that will confront us whether we like it or not. Gotta deal with them shits the best way we each are able to. If your religion doesn’t speak to you about your real life or the real world you live in, what’s the point? It’s a great disservice, in my mind, if your religion causes you to live in a fantasy world and ignore the realities of your existence. Each of us has our own specific propensities to deal with things. Some people are excellent cooks or great painters, but may not be the person you want there when someone is trying to break into your house or hurt someone you care about. Know what I’m saying?  

HUTCH: Also the football (Houston Dynamo) and the Skinhead lifestyle seem to embrace generic masculinity and violence. How does that coincide with a Krishna lifestyle?

SUNDARANANDA: As for the violence…like I said, life is sometimes that way. Krishna fought demons and drove a chariot into battle. Haha! Krishna and his brother were known (in the ancient texts) to be great wrestlers. Krishna himself was known as a lover who practically worshipped Radharani. A lot of the time I think my being a skinhead comes from some of the same things that made me a Vaishnava. There’s just a great feeling of comradery and accomplishment one gets from being a part of a like-minded group of people. It just so happens that the groups I’ve always gravitated toward have shaved heads, dress in similar clothes, and like to chant together…whether that be at a game or in the temple. 

HUTCH: How often do you have to dress in the robes etc? Do you get stares from the public?

SUNDARANANDA: As for the dhoti (robes) no one is required to wear it. We choose to for different reasons. Some who live in the temple do so because it’s easier than collecting and compiling a ton of clothes in a small space. But those are generally the “monks”. A lot of us do for identity purposes. When I go to a show, I look around and see the people in the Fred Perry’s and Ben Shermans and Docs and I can immediately identify “my people”. Ultimately, though, does wearing a Fred Perry make one a skinhead? No…same with the dhoti. When I go to a funeral I dress a particular way. This is to be respectful of the family and to be respectful of the person whose funeral it is. Same with a wedding. I dress in a way that shows that I’m doing my part to make the couple getting married feel that they are important to me. When I go to the temple I’m there to see the deities…so when it comes down to it, I dress for them. As for the public…bah! Have you seen the way some people dress or what people think it’s ok to go out wearing? Growing up in NYC there were freaks everywhere…so I never felt like I stood out. 

HUTCH: Can you explain the significance of the face paint?

SUNDARANANDA: That’s called “tilak”. It’s actually clay from the banks of a sacred river where Krishna is from. It’s worn to mark our bodies as temples and to put a symbol from the life of Krishna onto our bodies. Kind of like, an Ash Wednesday every day. Different philosophical schools wear it in different patters/designs. 

HUTCH: Your temple… how frequently do you have to go? Is it like a mass?

SUNDARANANDA: No one has to go and there’s no required amount of times that anyone is expected to. I go as often as I can because it’s a re-charge for me just to be there and see the deities and be around the other devotees. Remember the pre-internet days…when you’d go to a show and hear about a band’s new album or meet like-minded people who’d tell you about some record or ‘zine or something that you didn’t know about? It’s like that. I constantly hear about books or other information I didn’t know or have before. I like to go first thing in the morning because it sets my mood for the day. On Sundays, though, there is a regular program…congregational singing, chanting, reading from the texts, a lecture and a communal meal. So, yeah, it’s like a mass.

HUTCH: So a claimed tenet of Christianity is supposed to be humility - while the Catholics seemed to have missed that memo - so like Amish or Quakers or Episcopalians stay plain and reserved. How do you feel about that?  Like ornate temples etc.?

SUNDARANANDA: I don't know, personally I like the temples...maybe it's because I'm an American, I don't know. But I think of the temples as a house for Radha and Krishna...I like when they look nice and are beautifully decorated.

HUTCH: Do you have anything similar to a mass?  I think I asked about the temple and you said everyone goes as much as they want - but is there anything structured that one follows?

SUNDARANANDA: Sure, we have a Sunday program that consists of congregational singing and dancing and making offerings to the deities. Then a lecture or reading from one of our texts, then a communal meal. This goes down every day, but Sunday is the one everyone usually attends. In the mornings there is a set program for the first viewing of the deities, too. Certain songs are sung, etc. The "mass" type programs are scheduled to coincide with viewing the deities and the different holidays. So, yeah, there's definitely a structure and schedule to what goes on when you're there. Or, like a church, you can just go in the middle of the day and hang out there for some quiet time or to do your chanting or whatever.

HUTCH: Are there any "hajj" type requirements - as you are American celebrating a religion from a foreign country ( that sounds more ignorant than i mean - but do you have to take any pilgrimages?) – If  it is not required, what are ones you would want to take?  Any holy sites which you would like to see? 

SUNDARANANDA: Nah, there's no requirement to make any specific pilgrimage...but I'd like to go to my guru's samadhi (where he is now buried) and to certain places associated with the pastimes 15th century incarnation of Krishna. That stuff is of personal importance to me...but there's no requirement at all.

HUTCH: My initial impetus for the questions was the paradox that i thought i saw in a religious punk. That said - obviously thousands have embraced both. Can you name bands that you found embraced both; a spiritual bond?

Cause for Alarm?

SUNDARANANDA: Sure...There are the aforementioned Bad Brains & Cro Mags, Cause for Alarm, 108, Poly Styrene and Lora Logic (from X-Ray Spex)...some folks that are kind of "out there" like Lee "Scratch" Perry and Nina Hagen. Aside from a whole host of musicians and groups outside of our associated subcultures.

HUTCH: And did you find kinship in other Krishna punks/hardcore kids? Or were they all twats - and you are the cool one (tongue in cheek)?

SUNDARANANDA: HAHA! You know...only rarely. For some I wasn't stereotypical enough...maybe "too skinhead" or something. Whereas for others I was too "Krishna". So usually my friendships had little to do with religious affiliation, you know? Certain people...like Sri Keshava from Shelter and Baby Gopal was always cool and we did shows together, and I learned a lot from Vraja Kishor from 108...but in general I didn't really have a lot of fellow devotees as friends in the hc scene. It's actually easier and a lot cooler to talk to other subculture types now that we're all older than it was when we were all younger.